Craps At Winstar, celebrity poker tournament 2020, kananaskis casino helicopter, domino poker indonesia. House rules for WinStar World Casino and Resort. All gaming patrons must be 18 years old to wager and/or be allowed in the gaming area; a valid State or Federal issued photo ID. must be provided upon request and at the discretion of Management.

On Sunday night, I took a date to the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma to do some gambling. I’ve never really done much gambling there besides playing poker. We didn’t have much fun at the slots, which seemed tight, so we decided to try the table games.

We started with roulette and went on to play blackjack. I knew in a vague way that the Winstar (like other Oklahoma casinos) charges an ante when you place a bet. But this was the first time I’d spent much time at the tables paying that ante on every hand of blackjack and every spin of the roulette wheel.

Being a gambling writer who’s especially interested in the math behind the games, I started thinking about how to quantify what this ante does to the house edge.

I had a math teacher in high school who insisted that I “show my work.”

That’s what I intend to do in this post. Calculate the house edge for the table games I played at the Winstar Casino, accounting for the antes.

What’s an Ante?

An ante is a forced bet, usually in poker, that drives action to the game. In the Native American casinos in Oklahoma, it’s an amount you put up in addition to your bet that the house keeps whether you win, lose, or push.

It would be more accurate to describe this so-called “ante” as a fee for playing a hand of blackjack or for betting on a spin of the roulette wheel. The casinos love to use euphemisms to make a bad deal seem slightly better, and using the word “ante” instead of “fee” is just an example of this.

This has the obvious effect of costing you the amount of the fee multiplied by the number of bets you make. Even if you’re winning, the fees add up. They could easily be the difference between a winning session and a losing session.

How the Roulette Ante Affects the House Edge

The first weird thing about playing roulette at the Winstar Casino is that they don’t have an actual roulette wheel. There’s an animated roulette wheel that drives the results. That wasn’t THAT weird for me; I’ve played at plenty of online casinos that did the same thing.

But the online casinos use a random number generator program to produce their roulette results. That’s a computer program that generates thousands of numbers per second. When you hit the “spin” or “bet” button at an online casino, the RNG stops on whatever number it’s “thinking of” at that millisecond.

The roulette games at the Winstar Casino don’t work that way. They have a dealer with a deck of cards. The dealer scans the playing card into a machine, then the animated roulette wheel spins and lands on the space that corresponds to the card that was dealt.

I have no reason to think that the probability of the underlying game had changed. It was a standard American roulette wheel on the giant TV screen above the table. It had 38 possible results, 2 of which were green (the 0 and the 00). 18 of those results were black, while the other 18 were red, and so on.

The table limits weren’t unusual, either. $5 minimum on the outside bets, with a $500 maximum bet.

But I had to pay a $1 fee (the so-called “ante”) every time they spun the wheel.

I didn’t even realize that was the case until the dealer told me to put up the extra dollar.

How did that affect the house edge?

Let’s start by assuming that we’re going to “spin the wheel” 38 times, and we’re going to get statistically perfect results. We’ll also assume that I bet on black every time.

This means that I’ll win $5 on 18 spins, and I’ll lose $5 on 20 spins.

On top of that, I’m going to lose $1 on each of the 38 spins.

I have $90 in winnings, and $100 in losses on the spins. Add $38 to my losses, and I wind up with a net loss of $48 over 38 spins.

That’s an average loss of about $1.26 per spin.

Since I’m basically putting $6 into action on every spin, an average loss of $1.26 per spin equates to an average loss of 21% of my bet.

That’s a lot higher than a 5.26% loss per spin.

In fact, that’s TERRIBLE.

Can You Do Anything to Lower the House Edge on the Roulette Games at the Winstar?

Here’s the thing:

I’m a low roller. (As you can imagine, gambling writers don’t make that much money.)

But if you have a bigger bankroll than I do, you can lower the house edge by betting more each time they spin the wheel.

The fee for the roulette games (and the craps games, for that matter) at the Winstar Casino remains $1 regardless of whether you’re betting $5 per spin or $500 per spin.

What does that change the house edge to?

You do the math the same way, but the average losses as a percentage of the money you’re putting into action drop as you raise the size of your bets, as follows:

  • If you’re betting $5 per spin, your average loss per spin is $1.26.
  • If you’re betting $100 per spin, your average loss per spin is $6.26.
  • If you’re betting $500 per spin, your average loss per spin is $27.32.

This means the house edge at each of these levels is:

  • At $5, the house edge is 21%.
  • At $100, the house edge is 6.2%
  • At $500, the house edge is 5.45%.

Notice how at $500 per spin, the house edge is almost normal–normal being 5.26%.

But your sole goal shouldn’t be to get the house edge as low as possible. You should also consider your average cost of playing per hour.

The roulette games moved along at the Winstar at a good clip–about 50 spins per hour.

To calculate your average loss per hour, you multiply the number of bets per hour by the average size of your bet, and then you multiply that by the house edge.

For a $5 bettor, this means you’re putting $6 into action 50 times per hour, for $300 per hour in total action. With a house edge of 21%, you can expect to lose $63/hour.

For a $100 bettor, you’re putting $101 into action 50 times per hour, for $5050 in total action. With a house edge of 6.2%, you can expect to lose $313.10/hour.

For a $500 bettor, you’re putting $501 into action 50 times per hour, for $25,050 in total action. With a house edge of 5.45%, you can expect to lose $1365.23/hour.

The big difference is between the $5 and $100 mark–you’re betting 20 times as much per hand, but the difference in the house edge is so great that your expected losses only go up by a factor of 5.

You’ll need to decide for yourself how much an hour of roulette is worth to you, but keep in mind, too, that these are long term averages anyway. Even if you’re betting $5/hand, you could come out a winner in the short term.

Winstar Casino And Resort Oklahoma

In fact, even though a lot of gambling experts eschew the Martingale System, Michael Bluejay wrote an excellent page about how the system does increase your probability of having a small winning session in the short run. This will, of course, over time, be balanced out by some large losing sessions.

(The Martingale System worked well enough for me Sunday night that I broke even at the roulette tables.)

What about the Blackjack Ante?

I’m going to look at the blackjack math a little differently, but I also should point out that the ante rules for the blackjack games are different. The fee changes based on how much you’re betting, as follows:

  • If you’re betting $5 to $99 per hand, the ante is 50 cents.
  • If you’re betting $100 to $999 per hand, the ante is $1.
  • If you’re betting $1000 to $1999, the ante is $2.
  • If you’re betting $2000+, the ante is $3.

The first thing I’m going to do when calculating the house edge for the blackjack (including the fee) is to look at the game’s edge based on the rules in place. This also assumes you’re playing with perfect basic strategy.

As it turns out, the rules at the Winstar blackjack tables are excellent:

  • They deal from 6 decks.
  • The dealer stands on soft 17.
  • No doubling after splitting.
  • No surrender.
  • You can double on any 2 cards.

With these rules in place, if you use perfect basic strategy, the house edge is only 0.56%.

But that’s not taking into account the 50 cent fee.

Here’s how we’re going to get to that number:

Let’s start with an expected hourly loss figure that doesn’t account for the ante.

When I was there, we only had an average of 3 players at the table–me, my lady friend, and usually one other person. (That person kept changing, but we hung in there for quite a while.)

According to the Wizard of Odds, I can expect 105 hands per hour at such a table. At $5 per hand, I’m putting $525 per hour into action.

Since I’m playing according to perfect basic strategy, my expected loss per hour just on the blackjack action (without the fee) is 0.56% of that, or $2.94/hour.

But I’m also losing 50 cents per hand to the fee. With 105 hands/hour, that’s another $52.50 in hourly losses. (I also get to add that to the hourly action.)

So with the fee, I’m wagering $577.50 and losing $55.40 of that.

That’s an effective house edge of 9.59%.

Oklahoma

I don’t need to tell you that this has a terrible effect on what would otherwise be a great blackjack game.

What If You Increase Your Bet Sizes?

If you were paying attention during the roulette section, you probably already realize that if you raise the size of your bets, you can lower that house edge.

Let’s say you’re betting $99/hand instead. Now you’re putting $99 X 105 into action per hour, or $10,395. Your expected loss on that is $58.21.

You’re still paying $52.50 in fees, though, so your expected loss goes up to $110.71.

On total action of $10,447.50 in action, that’s a house edge of 1.1%.

Now that’s more like it. If you have the bankroll to afford this kind of action, it makes a lot of sense to bet $99/hand instead.

But here’s something interesting:

Watch what happens when you start betting $100/hand instead of $99/hand:

Your fee doubles. It’s now a dollar instead of 50 cents, which means that you now have $105 in hourly fees.

Your expected hourly loss besides that doesn’t change much. You’re putting $10,500 into action each hour instead of $10,447.50. Your expected loss on that is $58.80 instead of $58.21.

Add those together, and your hourly loss is $163.80 instead of $110.71.

So the house edge when you’re betting $99 is only 1.1%, but when you’re betting $100, it’s 1.54%.

If you really want to drop the house edge, though, just raise the size of your bets to $999.

$999 X 105 = $104,895

0.56% X $104,895 = $587.41

$587.41 + $105 = $692.41

$692.41/$105,000 = 0.65%

If you have the bankroll to afford that kind of action, it’s worth doing. You’ll find plenty of casinos in Las Vegas which don’t offer a house edge that low.

You might even be able to get an edge at this kind of game with a card counting strategy, although I suspect most people don’t have the bankroll for that. Also, I have a feeling–and I’ve read forum posts suggesting–that the security at the casinos in Oklahoma frown even more on blackjack advantage players than the casinos in Las Vegas do.

Conclusion

The fees (or so-called “antes”) for the roulette games and the blackjack games at the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma have a significant effect on the house edge.

In fact, if you’re a low roller, the best thing you can do is to avoid the roulette game altogether. If you do play roulette, try to avoid betting the minimum. Bet as much as you can comfortably afford, and remember that the house always wins in the long run anyway.

With the blackjack games, be careful with the amount you bet. The house edge can change dramatically between $99 and $100 per bet just because of the rising size of the fee.

You’ll find other posts in forums complaining about the antes at the casinos in Oklahoma. I’ll refrain from any histrionics here. You know what the deal is now, so if you want to play, that’s your business.

It does remind me of the old joke about the guy who plays in this lousy poker game. One of his buddies asks him, if the game’s so bad, why do you keep playing?

Because it’s the only game in town, he replies.

Introduction

In California the dice alone may not determine the outcome in craps. So a combination of dice and playing cards, or cards alone, are used. There are numerous ways this is done. Here are some methods I am aware of.

Agua Caliente

Twelve cards are used, an ace through six from two separate decks, with different color back sides. The cards will be shuffled and spread across the table face down. The first card of each color from one end shall be used to represent the roll. The odds are the same as with dice.

Barona

Winstar casino craps table

Six cards are used, numbered one to six. They are randomly placed in six positions on the table. The roll of two dice will determine which card(s) are turned over, that shall deterine the outcome for betting purposes. With each new shooter, the cards are re-arranged. The odds are the same as conventional craps.

Fantasy Springs

Same method as the Agua Caliente.

Harrah's

Two separate six-card decks, one red and one green, are used. Each shoe consists one each of ranks A, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Aces count as one, all other ranks count according to its pip value. Six cards are dealt from each shoe. Two ordinary dice are thrown, one red and one green. The outcome of the dice determine which cards are turned over, which represent the roll. The odds are the same as conventional craps.

Normandie

Two partial decks are mixed together, each consisting of all four suits ranked ace to six. So, there are 48 cards total. Two cards are drawn without replacement. If they are the same suit, then there is no action. Otherwise, the two cards represent the roll. This is mathematically equivalent to using dice. There is also a 'No Call' bet, which pays 3 to 1 on two cards of the same suit. The house edge on that bet is 6.38%. As usual with the Los Angeles county casinos, the player must also pay about a 1% fee on all bets.

Pala

The following equipment is used: (A) A red die numbered with three 1's, and three 4's, (B) a blue die numbered with three 2's, and three 3's, and (C) A 36-card deck featuring all possible permutations of two dice. Two cards are drawn at random and placed face down over red and blue regions of the table. The dice are thrown. If the red die is higher then the red card is turned over and used as the roll, if the blue die is higher then the blue card is used. Note that there can be no ties. Also the blue die is irrelevant. A 1 on the red die will always lose to the blue die, and a 4 will always win. The odds are the same as conventional craps.

Winstar Casino Craps

The 'Super Field' pays if both cards are the 1-1 and 6-6, in either order. Wins pay 500 to 1. The probability of winning is 0.154%, for a house edge of 22.685%.

Pechanga

Pechanga currently follows the Barona method (at least as of 7/26/16). They have previously used other methods so please don't write in to correct me unless you have very current information.

Pauma

A 73-card deck is used, consisting of 12 each of cards ace to six, and one joker. Two cards are drawn to determine the roll. If the first card is the joker, there is no action, and two new cards are drawn. If the second card is the joker, it shall match the first card. The odds are the same as conventional craps.

The joker side bet pays 60 FOR 1 if the first card is a joker. The probability of winning is 1.389%, for a house edge of 16.67%.

The four suit bets, one for each suit, win if both cards are the suit specified, and pays 14 FOR 1. The probability of winning is 5.822%, for a house edge of 18.493%.

San Manuel


Same procedure as Viejas, except 312 cards are in the shuffler and they call it just 'craps.'

Sycuan

The Sycuan follows the same procedure as Barona.

Viejas

The game is dealt at a blackjack-size table called 'Card Craps.' I'm told a 264-card shoe is used, consisting of 44 cards each of ranks ace to six. They start with five 54-card decks (9 cards each numbered 1 to 6), and then remove one of each face (5×54-6=264), to accomodate the shuffler. Two cards are drawn to represent the roll. Due to the effect of non-replacement, the odds will be slightly different from conventional craps.

The maximum win on odds bets is $1,000. If the player wishes to get that limit, with 10X odds after a pass or come bet, then he should not bet more than $10 on a pass or come bet, and $100 on a don't pass or don't come.

For more information, see my page on Card Craps.

Southern California Odds Survey

Here is what I know of the odds allowed in the casinos of southern California.

Winstar Casino Games

San Diego County Craps Survey

CasinoOdds OfferedHouse EdgeLast Surveyed
Agua Caliente3x-4x-5x0.37%Sep. 2013
AugustineNo crapsN/ASep. 2013
Barona5x0.33%Dec. 2008
Chumash??Never
Fantasy Springs3x-4x-5x0.37%Sep. 2013
Golden AcornNo crapsN/ADec. 2008
Harrah's2x0.57%Dec. 2008
La PostaNo crapsN/ADec. 2008
MorongoNo crapsN/ASep. 2013
Pala5x0.33%Dec. 2008
Pauma3x-4x-5x0.37%Dec. 2008
Pechanga10x0.18%May 2014
Santa YsabelNo crapsN/ADec. 2008
Soboba??Never
SpaNo crapsN/ASep. 2013
Spotlight 29No crapsN/ASep. 2013
Sycuan5x0.33%Dec. 2008
Valley ViewNo crapsN/ADec. 2008
Viejas*10x0.18%Dec. 2008

* The Viejas 10X odds game has a maximum odds bet of $600.

'3x-4x-5x' means the player can bet 3 times his pass/come bet with a point of 4 or 10, 4 times with a 5 or 9, and 5 times with a 6 or 8. Assuming the player always takes the maximum odds, under this rule, his odds win will always be 6 times his pass line bet. The house edge column is the combined house edge between the pass/come bet and full odds.

Disclaimer: The Barona Casino hired me to perform surveys of San Diego casinos for backjack, roulette, and craps. The table above summarizes my findings.

Oklahoma

It seems that Oklahoma also has card craps. Here is what little I know about it.

Winstar

The Winstar uses a 36-card deck, one card for each two-dice combination. It is my understanding that the cards look ordinary, except for a bar code, which corresponds to the dice roll.

Other Games Surveyed in San Diego

Internal Links

Winstar Casino Craps

  • How the house edge for each bet is derived, in brief.
  • The house edge of all the major bets on both a per-bet made and per-roll basis
  • Dice Control Experiments. The results of two experiments on skillful dice throwing.
  • Dice Control Advantage. The player advantage, assuming he can influence the dice.
  • Craps variants. Alternative rules and bets such as the Fire Bet, Crapless Craps, and Card Craps.
  • California craps. How craps is played in California using playing cards.
  • Play Craps. Craps game using cards at the Viejas casino in San Diego.
  • Number of Rolls Table. Probability of a shooter lasting 1 to 200 rolls before a seven-out.
  • Ask the Wizard. See craps questions I've answered about:
  • Simple Craps game. My simple Java craps game.

External Links

  • Las Vegas craps survey — The max odds bet allowed at each casino.

Written by: Michael Shackleford